Food Politics

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Why not just tell pregnant women not to eat cheese when pregnant? It seems this problem is pervasive in the cheese supply no matter what type of cheese and for all the Listeria the FDA catches, who knows how much more is out there?

Like wine, it’s delicious, but perhaps not worth it for the nine month window in which women are expecting.

Would S.510 exempt small producers from having to implement HACCP?

I agree with Melissa there. Instead of destroying family farms why not just tell pregnant women not to eat cheese? And people should take responsibility for themselves and trade freedom in for more tyranny.

I am the person whose question Marion Nestle answered in the Chronicle about Listeria in pregnant women. Because my baby died from Listeria, I have been closely following the story regarding Estrella Family Creamery and its recent problems with the FDA.

My original letter to Marion Nestle and her column at the Chronicle was to address the issue of the safety of artisan and local foods. There is a perception that they are inherently safe — but really they are not safer than foods from the conventional food supply. They just reach less people, and thus would cause less illness if contaminated. I pride myself on shopping and eating local, so this was a big wake-up call for me. (For example, I’ve visited many of the farms that I buy from weekly at the farmer’s market, and know the provenance of almost all of the food, including meats, cheeses, and vegetables/fruits, that I eat.)

The Tester amendment perpetuates the perception that artisan and
local foods is inherently safe. And Estrella Family’s decision to continue selling its cheese is proving there are problems with the Tester amendment. “Pride of ownership” and a relationships with its customers isn’t preventing the company from selling cheese made in a facility where listeria was found — and has still not been eradicated from!

I support the Tester amendment in its intents (to support the local
food movement) but Estrella should stop selling its cheeses until the listeria is eradicated. Unless the company puts a sticker on all its products acknowledging its problems with Listeria, it is not fully disclosing the status of its cheese to its customers.

I am pregnant again — at 19 weeks, in fact, the same stage that i lost my first baby to Listeria. Although I still eat locally and seasonally, you can bet I am being much more careful this time around.

And in response to the previous commenters Melissa and Kelli: The CDC and USDA does recommend that women don’t eat soft cheeses. But many women ignore that direction and perhaps never even hear it from their doctors. Like many things with health care today, it is incumbent upon the patient to educate herself on these issues.

There are a lot of myths about what women should and shouldn’t eat during pregnancy but I thought the items in your list were very well-known. Although Stilton is always pasteurised (it has to be by law) it is still a blue cheese and should not be eaten during pregnancy.

I am very very sorry to hear that this woman lost her baby – it is truly sad. It is important for pregnant women to receive the right advice – from their doctors (as opposed to old wives’ tales from friends and family). But then it is the woman’s responsibility to follow that advice. Ultimately it is her body and she gets to make the decisions on what goes into it. Many women ignore doctors’ advice not to smoke or drink during pregnancy. That doesn’t mean we ought to ban cigarettes or alcohol completely. It is the same with food.

A panic over bacterial contamination in Stilton led to all Stilton being pasteurised under the PDO legal definition of Stilton. This completely destroyed the character of an artisanal cheese that had been made without pasteurisation for hundreds of years.

The point of artisanal food is that it is made in smaller quantities, with quality ingredients, and that it tastes better. The point is not that it is safer. Sometimes it is, depending on your definition of “safer” – for example it probably contains fewer chemical preservatives, and if it is organic it will not contain synthetic pesticides.

No food is completely safe. Even if it is completely uncontaminated at the point of sale, storing and handling in the home may change this. At some point along the chain it has to come down to consumer responsibility. And if this means that some women choose to put their unborn children at risk by eating risky food (or by smoking, or drinking alcohol for that matter), that is their choice.

I’d like to thank Estrella for using the internet and expert public relations techniques to underplay the fact that they are actually poisoning the customers! Listeria KILLS. But Estrella certainly underplay this fact of the matter. Bad government isn’t the problem, it’s Estrella who are selling poison cheese. All the PR hype about freedom and bad government doesn’t change these facts. And the shameful way they have acted so far makes me think that independent “defiant” business people are the actual problem here, and Estrella is certainly and obviously not the downtrodden victim, although that’s not how they frame the situation.

Next time, hire an insurance company, not a PR company when you have problems, Estrella!

Here is quebec we had a small outbreak of listeria in cheese a couple of years ago. The gov’t seized large amounts of artisanal cheese from retailers and producers alike. THey did this to protect the public and this is what a responsible public health agency HAS to do in these situations,. Eating cheese should not be like playing a game of russian roulette. Public confidence in cheese products was restored.

OK, the cheese makers and retails were out some $$$ for inventory, and this was never really resolved. However, public health comes first!!! When dangerous bacteria is discovered there is only ever one solution. Seizure. Sorry producer, but if you can’t guarantee the safety of the cheese, the gov’t must take the position to protect the public health. Because after all, the cheese producer cares only about the income and the maintenance of the revenue stream at all costs, even, apparently, the death of a few customers. SHAME on any one who can sell poison cheese and then complain about the government actually DOING its job to protect public health.

And I bet Estrella company thinks it has good “christian values.”

I think it’s interesting that people feel so strongly that pregnant women should be the ones who make the decisions about what they eat, and that it should be incumbent on them to be fully educated about all the various food issues. I’m okay with that, as long as I also get the make the decision about whether or not I choose to continue a pregnancy. My body, my choices?

Provenance is the biggest issue facing all food producers whether artisan or not.We grow extra virgin olive oil on a fully sustainable model right down to measuring carbon credits. Our HACCP food safety programme is an assurance for our customers and ourselves that we are guaranteeing safety. You need full traceability of product. It is a public health issue. If issues of food safety are left to the food producers this is a recipe for disaster. Just because you are an artisan or family farm producer does not give you any more credibility when it comes to food safety than the next man.

Pasterisation kills vitamins, BUT…. if you make food, then ensure it conforms to ‘bacteria free’ status, or you will be creamed more than the cheese is by the authorities.

I don’t know why this is such a problem in US. In France where cheese is part of everyday life, somehow the women can give it up for the time they are pregnant. And no one blames the cheese producers for producing delicious cheeses, that yes pregnant women can not eat. If something is deadly only to a very small part of the population it should not be banned (like nuts or other allergens, that yes can kill people, but those people take the responsibility of not eating it). It would be so much easier for a doctor to have a handout and checklist that he/she goes over with a pregnant women, and the rest is her choice. To the women who lost her baby, I am very sorry. But with this thinking why are we also not going after undercooked meat, smoked fish/meats, badly cleaned salads which also can kill unborn babies, and yet no one would ever imagine banning them.

I never knew brie was on the list

XOXO,

http://outfitidentifier.com/

I miraculously survived a listeria infection as a newborn infant. A fast thinking obstetrician literally took me from the delivery room to an ambulance for transport to Boston for IV antibiotic treatment at Children’s Hospital. I’m 33 years old now and do public health legal research with a focus on food and obesity. I never considered before how spending my first month of life in the hospital due to a foodborne illness may have planted a deep seed in me to care about our food system. A core government function is to protect the public health and to ensure the safety of our food supply. I fear that focusing attention on enforcement action against a few small producers creates a false impression that there is an adequately robust enforcement system with enough resources to go after even the little guys. When the reality is that our food safety system is in need of major reforms.

Jane, thank you for posting in such a thoughtful and practical way on your experience, loss, and current practices. I hope everyone on this blog can see that you are a very responsible and informed person, but that not everyone can know everything and a multi-levelled system does need to be in place to help minimize risks from food contamination. Multi-levelled = farm, processing, distribution, storage, home preparation, as well as physician/public health/consumer awareness education.

Sarah wants everyone to take responsibility for themselves, especially during high risk times like pregnancy. Fine for people with literacy, time, information access skills, food storage and prep skills, etc etc. I’ve got all those skills, but I’ve still gotten food poisoning.

If you eat, you’re likely to get food poisoning at some point or other. Reducing risk makes sense, eliminating risk would mean death by starvation.

Next time you’re at a stop light or driving within the lines on the highway, consider if the stop light or the highway lines are taking your freedom away, or making your life safer and easier. Same thing with food safety regs.

Cathy. What you say is true. But how am I supposed to trust that a government agency has my best interests at heart? Haven’t we learned how corrupt the system is yet?

Regarding Estrella – thankfully, there are no reported cases of illness and let’s hope it stays that way. I have some real concerns about the Estrella’s thoughts on food safety as I outlined here:

http://www.marlerblog.com/case-news/what-the-hell-does-listeria-in-cheese-have-to-do-with-god-guns-and-slavery-at-the-estrella-family-cr/

Also, you can find the court documents supporting the Judge’s decision to seize the cheese here:

http://www.marlerblog.com/case-news/should-estrella-family-creamery-be-treated-differently-than-sangar-when-it-comes-to-listeria/

Bottom line, I am sure the Estrellas are great people and their cheese tastes great, but they do need to take food safety a bit more seriously.

@ Pete — hence the multi-level requirements, including some personal responsibility that is supported by the system, rather than hindered by the system.

Cathy, I am from New Zealand, one of the world’s largest producers of dairy. Yet there is a law that all cheese must be pasteurised. Recently regulations have been slightly relaxed to allow importation of unpasteurised cheeses. But really I think it’s wrong to make such sweeping regulations in order to protect such a tiny portion of the population. You cannot stop pregnant women doing things that may harm their unborn child, whether it is eating undercooked or cured meats, eating cheese, smoking, drinking, taking drugs or driving too fast. Pregnant women are in frequent contact with their doctors so they are perfectly placed to learn what they should and shouldn’t do.

Food safety regulations should be there to protect the majority of the population. Banning unpasteurised cheese (which is higher in nutrition and flavour than pasteurised cheese) just because it may harm a tiny segment of the population would be the same in my mind as banning Snickers bars, because someone with a peanut allergy might eat one.

Sarah,

I think you’re missing the main point: Estrella is knowingly selling cheese that has been made in a facility that has listeria. Unless they are disclosing this on the labels of their products, they are endangering the public. That is irresponsible and disrespectful to their customers.

No one commenting here has suggested the government outlaw pasteurized cheese. We just want Estrella to stop selling contaminated product. What is so wrong with that? The majority of listeria cases are never “solved” — that is, the cause is never determined. So just because no reported listeria cases have been attributed to their cheese, doesn’t mean that it hasn’t caused illness.

The refusal of local food evangelists to acknowledge flaws in artisan food just weakens the movement, as evangelism can weaken anything. Artisan cheesemakers should be pressuring Estrella to pull its products — because their actions could be screwing it up for everyone (i.e., then the Tester amendment would be pulled entirely and no one will get to sell their cheese and other products without jumping through hoops).

I support local and artisan food and want it to thrive, but if Estrella continues to dominate the spotlight, they just might be shooting themselves — and their industry — in the foot.

Your argument about pregnant women not smoking and drinking also is like comparing apples to oranges because of two things:
1. Drinking and smoking during pregnancy won’t kill your baby, as listeria will.
2. There are warning labels on cigarettes and alcohol stating its dangers to pregnant women. To my knowledge, no food carries this warning.

Have any of you people saying that the onus should be entirely on the pregnant woman to figure out what is and isn’t safe to eat ever actually been pregnant? I have a PhD in biochemistry and I found sorting through all of the advice fairly overwhelming. It is not as simple as “talk to your doctor”, because (1) in many cases all the doctor will tell you are the risk factors, and it is still up to you to make the call about what to do, (2) everyone and their granny wants to tell you what you should and shouldn’t do while pregnant, and (3) you already have a fulltime job and a lot to figure out with the new baby coming, and don’t have time to become an instant expert of food safety.

And then there as the problem of implementing the advice once you decide what you’ll do, while also eating a decent diet despite feeling like I was going to throw up most of the day.

“Just avoid all cheese” you say? I say screw you. I avoided unpasteurized cheese and any soft cheese that wasn’t cooked. I avoided strawberries and deli meats. I avoided tuna and other fish that was likely to have high mercury levels. I avoided peanuts, because at the time that was the best recommendation for preventing peanut allergies in your kid (my family has a history of allergies). I cooked my hamburger well done, because we can’t be bothered to fix our E. coli problem, either.

But I was also still a human being, not just a vessel for a baby. I went out to eat. I’d always ask about the cheese included in the dishes I ordered. Thankfully, I carried both of my babies to term and have two healthy little girls now. But are you really saying that if one of the waiters I asked about the cheese was misinformed or just didn’t know why it mattered, it is perfectly OK that the cost of that should have been that I lose my baby? Just so that you can have the “right” to eat cheese infected with a pathogen? Really, screw you. Estrella should clean up its act or go out of business.

@Jane — well rebutted! I really admire your knowledge of the topic and acknowledgement of the balance between responsibilities and freedoms at all levels (artisans, industry, individuals).

@Cloud — I hear ya. But hope you can find another outlet for your stronger expressions of frustration.

My favourite part of this blog is the exchange of opinions and information. Not the exchange of barbs.

so when estrella cheese is at retail locations and someone gets sick and the health authorities destroy ALL cheese in the same store and any other store where estrella is sold then maybe the “artisanal” producers will stand up and show some testicular fortitude, class, and responsibility and tell Estrella to get their act together and stop destroying the public’s trust in the artisanal cheese industry? Estrella needs to do the RIGHT thing and recall their tainted product.

Requiring our food manufacturers both large and small to produce safe food is not a radical idea.